Political Discussions
Has Affirmative Action Gone To Far In College Admissions?
Posted by theboyjlowe • 11/18/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: affirmative action, College, education, schools
I myself am perfectly happy at the college I am at now, but I can't help thinking about where I could have gone if I was a minority. I applied to Virginia Tech with a GPA of 3.6 with many honors classes, while my minority friend applied with around a 3.4 or 3.5 with normal classes. I didn't get in and he in turn did. Colleges do have to have a certain percentage of minorities enrolled, but are colleges inserting race over intellect? Colleges are supposed to be a place for higher learning first and then diversity as a side point. Instead, diversity has been put on a higher tier for schools to look good and in turn education has been thrown under the rug more and more lately.
User Comments
-
What you have to understand is that no one was sitting in a room with your file and your friend's file next to one another and deciding which of you to admit. Different admissions officers see hundreds of files, and many people who are numerically qualified aren't admitted for one reason or another. At top schools, it's because the qualified applicants outnumber the available seats by a factor of ten or more. And no school goes strictly by the numbers--an applicant with somewhat lower numbers and a broader range of activities, for instance, is more likely to be admitted at most schools. Well written personal statements and letters of recommendation often tip the scales. And finally, you make no mention of test scores. Many schools put more weight on admissions test scores like the ACT, SAT, GMAT, GRE, LSAT and MCAT than they do on GPA, for a variety of reasons. -
Ridiculous,
To think that someone is worth more because they belong to a certain group. Not based on their achievements is insulting.
The only fair application of this practise is to make it the last selection criteria. Select students based on their achievement. And only when there is a tie in the admissions board. Race/gender/ etc. is taken into consideration.
Even then it's unfair. But at least better.-
But, CSI, there is never a "tie". It's a "yes/no" decision on an individual basis.
-
In most of the cases, there is. And that is fine, that decision shouldn't be based on anything but the academic achievements and other requirements. Like essays, extra curricular activities etc.
But there can very well be a "tie" point, when there are more students applying to a program than what will be accepted. If there is indeed a certain number of slots, and more students left to fill them.
Not the norm i know. But that is my point. Selection based on anything but qualifications is ludicrous. -
But "qualifications" means a lot of different things, and since many of them (including those that many schools consider most important) are subjective. In addition, the vast majority of schools do not have a hard-and-fast cut-off for what makes an applicant "qualified" in terms of numbers, and virtually all respectable schools get more qualified applicants than they can admit in every admissions cycle.
-
All of this is valid. To choose someone based on Racial preference isn't.
-
-
They use more than just your GPA to determine admissions. It could be your friend wrote a better essay. Or maybe they were afraid you'd be rejected by the other students and go on a shooting rampage.-
Satijournal, that was quite tasteless and rude. -
And therefore funny. -
very funny
-
-
You cite your GPA but not SAT scores, recommendations, extracurriculars, and anything else special you could bring to the place. And how good was your writing sample? How thoughtful?
And FYI, as a white male you are something of a minority on campus. These days more women make the cut, and that is not because of any quota. More of them are simply better qualified.
Ever run a race in track or cross country in high school? A great way to lose is to look over your shoulder. Concentrate on your own efforts and stop worrying about where others are or making excuses for what you or they are achieving. -
Look at the stats you posted. The numbers for the G.P.A. are not significant enough for you to be upset. If you had said someone with a G.P.A. of 2.0 got in over you because of their minority status, then we would have had a bases for a debate.
-
P.S. Honors classes just amount to more work. They don't necessarily mean that you are smarter.
-
The irony is that in another thread not long ago ( www.blogcatalog.com/politics/discuss/entry/no-candy-for-you-next ) many were questioning your poor writing and reasoning on these boards, and you were assuring us that you were a strong candidate for medical school. Perhaps you should consider some of the input you received then before you write your next round of admissions essays.
-
Based on the current state of our economy and all of the financial bailouts given to companies who do have Ivy League managers on board; one would have to say that higher education is a fraud, based on the poor performance of such highly educated individuals.
-
-
Affirmative action needs to stay in school and in the workplace. I say this because White men have proven over and over again, that if you take away the laws they will misbehave.
-
I think it is because of people like you that we need affirmative action. The resentful ones.
-
There seems to be plenty of resentment to go around on this thread.
-
-
The overall point of the post is affirmative action, not whether this kid was as qualified as his friend or not and apparently a lot of you have missed that.
Affirmative action I think is a dumb idea. I understand what it was trying to accomplish but I feel that it did not work like it was intentioned. The new fad for colleges and universities is to show how "diverse" they are. They use affirmative action to put their diversity on display. So yes, schools do take race and religion into account when determining who is accepted and who is not because they do not want to be called "racist" by a bunch of far left loons since they have a school filled with all white people. When I was rejected from my top choice for college I figured it was because of grades, but I later found out it was because of affirmative action, otherwise I would have been admitted. On those grounds alone I think affirmative action is wrong, to accept a candidate because you need MORE of a certain race/gender/religion/economic person over someone who they have a lot of similar people. This is not how colleges should be deciding acceptances, grades, activities, and so forth, not race or anything else like that.
I think it is even a more terrible idea when graduate schools go for this, especially medical and dental schools. Certain medical or dental schools will specifically look for minority applicants who normally would not meet their standards and allow them entry. That is what really drives me crazy. Medical and dental schools are training UNQUALIFIED applicants to become MD's and DDS's to show they are diverse and they are ALLOWED to practice medicine. They are messing with people's health for the sole purpose of seeming "diverse". ARRGGHH!! That just really drives me even crazier than colleges doing it.-
The problem with people who have an issue with affirmative action, as you've displayed here, is that they equate other-than-whiteness (or other than richness, or other than male-ness, etc.) with lack of qualification. Your assumption is written all over your post and it couldn't be farther from the truth. I would suggest checking your racial prejudice at the door and getting some real facts about college admissions, college retention rates and whether "affirmative action" is at play in graduating from college. -
The overall point of this post was that affirmative action had gone too far, as evidenced by something that wasn't evidence at all. If there is some other evidence of affirmative action having a disproportionate impact in college admmisisons,or unqualified applicants being admitted, then that is indeed worth discussion. Thus far, no one has introduced any evidence, even anecdotal, to that effect, and it is unlikely that anyone could in the wake of the string of U.S. Supreme Court decisions on the issue a few years back.
-
MadameX, I probably should have stated in my last post but I got caught up in a tangent. It has gone too far because just look at my example, it has reached medical and dental schools. If someone is qualifed regardless of race/gender/ect... then they deserve acceptance (assuming all the seats have not been taken). Anything besides academics should not be playing a role in the decisions of colleges or professional schools because it is doing exactly what affirmative action sought to do away with. It is still putting an emphasis on race/gender/ect... just in a different way. Instead of favoring white males, affirmative action favors minorities. This is still wrong because something besides earned credentials is being thrown into the application process.
-
Opinionstreams, no no no. You missed my point. I am not equating "other than whiteness" as being under qualified. I was saying that these schools KNOWINGLY I repeat KNOWINGLY accept under qualified applicants to their professional programs simply for affirmative action purposes. You want examples? Look at Harvard Medical School's Minority Medicine Program. This program is designed specifically for minorities to gain acceptance into their program that otherwise would not make the cut. They also allow for special research opportunities not given to their general student body. Now you tell me that is fair. Affirmative action is doing exactly what is intended NOT to do, use race as a determinant for accepting (not graduation) students into colleges, universities, or professional schools.
-
If that were the case he would have left out the example.
-
"This program is designed specifically for minorities to gain acceptance into their program that otherwise would not make the cut. They also allow for special research opportunities not given to their general student body. Now you tell me that is fair."
You're mixing two issues here. The fact that someone might not normally be admitted to Harvard hardly equates with that person being "unqualified" to practice dentistry or medicine. -
newblogger - I think the point you're missing is that everyone who's accepted to undergraduate or graduate education in the U.S. is accepted because they're qualified. You seem to be laboring under the misperception that either: (1) racial minorities, women or economically disadvantaged students are being admitted to universities solely because of their classification without regard to their qualifications; or (2) that those classes of people are inherently less academically qualified than white males. Either assumption is dangerously wrong.
Also, I disagree with your opinion that academic scores should be the only criteria on which college applicants are judged. Universities (both at the undergraduate and graduate levels) are not just places that train people to perform well on graded tests, they also train people to critically think in a world of diverse viewpoints. They train people to live, work and operate in the real world where there are athletes, musicians, poets, mathematicians, poor people, black people, women...all sorts of people with intelligent ideas arrived at through different experiences. If this is the world in which we live, colleges have a right to make the educational experience in college a microcosm of that world.
edit in light of your subsequent comment: While I have to look into Harvard's program, I still find it hard to believe that Harvard would admit people whom Harvard felt would be unsuccessful in Harvard's Medical School. Harvard is a profit maximizing institution and four years of tuition payments is better than one or two. Harvard also must keep retention rates high to retain its status. It does both of these things by admitting people who are qualified to succeed in Harvard's program. Again, the problem is with the assumption that schools are using affirmative action to admit unqualified students. That assumption is wrong.
And furthermore, affirmative action cannot get a student across the stage at graduation. So the assumption that schools are graduating unqualified students is also false. -
Opinion
"The problem with people who have an issue with affirmative action, as you've displayed here, is that they equate other-than-whiteness (or other than richness, or other than male-ness, etc.) with lack of qualification"
That, probably qualifies as the dumbest thing you've written.
No, i have a problem with Affirmative action because I DON'T assume that someone who isn't white rich and male needs a leg up just because they aren't male-white-rich.
To me, the assumption that a person with less qualifications, should be rated higher because they are Black-female-poor, is tantamount to what you assume. That they are unable to compete on an even playingfield on their qualifications.
I need a handicap if i were to play against Tiger woods, Simply because i'm not as good. If i were as good as he was. To ask for a handicap would be in essence cheating.
So the question is then, Do people NEED affirmative action? and in that case, why aren't they as good. If they indeed are. then it shouldn't be needed. -
That's funny Erik, I thought the "dumbest" think I ever wrote was my comment that ran circles around your logic and made you call me "stupid" out of frustration. Need a refresher?
www.blogcatalog.com/politics/discuss/entry/hicthens-obama-and-terrorists#co...
Once again you fail to follow logic, but I've already responded to your narrow, faulty conclusion elsewhere in this comment stream, so I'll leave you to figure out my counter to your "logic".
Man, if only you could refrain from projecting... -
Yes i called you stupid in that argument because you claimed that wanting race not to be an issue in the election was racist. Sorry that you can't follow why that in itself is stupid.
And this is in my oppinion dumber than that. When you are claiming that those who don't think Affirmative action is a good idea are by definition bigots.
But, considering that you think the first was reasonable on your behalf. To assume that you'd see - let alone admit - the fallacy in your argument here is too much to hope for. -
Boy Erik, you sure seem to have a hard time getting points that aren't made by you. That doesn't make the differing viewpoint stupid, it just means that you're wired to not absorb ideas that go against your pre-determined conclusions. Anyway, you missed my point both here and in the other post (surprise, surprise).
With regard to my point here, your contention that your views against affirmative action do not stem from bigotry mean absolutely nothing with regard to my comment, that is of course unless you purport to speak for everybody who is against affirmative action. (You may think you have that much knowledge, which wouldn't surprise me, so let me know if you're the "anti-affirmative action spokesperson" now).
Let me walk you through this, Erik. NewBlogger made a specific statement to which I was responding. The statement intimated that NB felt affirmative action meant that unqualified minorities were getting to and through college. My response to NB was that people who held the viewpoint he expressed were operating out of a fallacy with roots in racial prejudice. Ergo, if you don't hold NB's view, my statement didn't apply to you. So, do you get it now? I wasn't saying that everyone opposed to affirmative action is a bigot.
Now, if you're puffing the magic dragon and thinking that nobody who is opposed to affirmative action is a bigot, I've got a bridge in Alaska to sell you... -
That is not at all the argument i'm making. People have all kinds of reasons to be for or against something.
My question to you is simply this.
If we can agree that a person from any group can be as qualified as any person from another group. Why should one group recieve preferential treatment to the point of less qualified gaining admittance over equally or higher qualified from another group. -
Erik - What you see as "preference" I see as leveling. What seems to be getting lost in this argument is that economically disadvantaged people (of which minorities are a large part) have not historically and still do not have equal access to higher education. We simply do not live in a country where people of all socio-economic and ethnic backgrounds have the same access and the same opportunity. So even given that two potential applicants, one black and one white, may have the same qualifications, I do not agree that the black potential applicant has the same opportunity to become an actual applicant. Affirmative action aims to even that playing field, not to give preference to the black potential applicant.
Now, if you want to argue that, whether or not you agree with affirmative action, it's not working, that's a point about which you will probably not find me debating.
-
-
For most upper tier schools, determining whether one is qualified or not is only the first step. The next step is to decide to what extent a student is a good match for the school. In the process, schools are interested in diversity, which means more than any ethnic category. Schools worth their salt want a diversity of intellectual interests, geographical background, backgrounds in paid and volunteer work, and so on and so forth. Such a brew will provide an environment that fosters intellectual growth on campus.
Affirmative action is a separate issue, I realize, but I see too many misconceptions about admissions. And I also see people jumping to conclusions about the negative impact of affirmative action on their own lives, as if college admissions were a zero-sum game. There is a huge university landscape in this country. Each student needs to find one that is a good match for him or her. The colleges participates in that process, because they want to shape the development of their own campuses.
Whether affirmative action is still absolutely necessary nation-wide, I can't say for sure, but I would suggest it still has a place, given the unequal track record of so many elementary and high schools in this country. This is painfully apparent in the metropolitan DC area where I live. One thing, though: race by itself won't cut it, at least not over the long run. There need to be other social indicators. Unequal access to educational opportunities are also affected by class.
Finally, people are expressing firm opinions here, but I don't see any concrete information on what the state of the law is, whether nationwide or for the Commonwealth of Virginia, where the OP mentions having applied to school. -
To add to what many have already stated - your example falls flat.
First, a 3.4 GPA is nothing to shake a stick at. It's a good set of grades. The other student may have had stronger extracurriculars than you, stronger admissions tests scores, stronger SAT scores, and a better overall application than you.
His scores and grades on particular subjects that pertain to the degree he was seeking from that school may have increased his overall chance to get in as well.
For example, I had a 3.9 (college GPA), and one college degree already going into the final college I attended. That alone, however, was not enough. My portfolio was on the weak side, and I just barely got in. My GPA simply wasn't good enough, and my weak portfolio only helped slightly. My previous experience, however, in freelance art sales, and a very strong application essay is what pushed me through.-
where does it say that they are guaranteed enrollment? This is just my opinion, but I would think academics has to play at least some roll in the process as well. I don't think they just would let them in.
-
-
There was no essay to make that straight and if there was it was only a couple sentences when I filled it out. My SAT scores were about average 500's on everything. The minority I was talking about did about the same if not a little worse. My extra curricular activities included National Honor Society, 4 years in marching band, 2 years wrestling, 2 years track, 1 year tennis, 2 years chess team captain. He played football for 4 years was in the National Honor society.
If it was pertaining to the degree I wanted, Tech has a newer medical program that started awhile back, but I don't see how that would make a difference in my case.
Honors classes do make a difference if you do well in them.
I can honestly say he got accepted do to race. For example, he had to go to a minority advising appointment for them to tell him if he would get in or not. They said he would get in with what he has done in high school. Let me say again that the session was specifically for minorities. There wasn't any opportunity for me to have something like that.-
You didn't bother to submit the supplemental statements? There's a big differentiator right there.
-
tbj - the mere fact that he attended a minority orientation program is not evidence that he was accepted because of his race. Most colleges invite minorities to attend orientation programs at the start of their freshman year.
Just because you "can honestly say" that race represented the only reason your friend got accepted does not render your opinion fact. You still arrive at your conclusion based on the assumption that (1) the same admissions rep looked at both your applications on the same day at the same time, (2) did a side by side comparison of the two of you, and (3) said "I'll admit X because he's [fill in the minority]." You're also assuming that the difference between 3.4 and 3.6 is significant enough to be a determinant to a college admissions officer. Virginia Tech has thousands of applicants each year, so your idea that you and your friend were reviewed against each other is basically wrong. And you must have that view, because a side-by-side comparison is just about the only thing that could make your opinion of why he got accepted anywhere near valid.
Also, I find it hard to believe that Virginia Tech doesn't have an essay requirement. -
I did what was required of me to submit an application to the college. I know that for sure.
-
There was no application essay? The average student there gets a 1238 on the SAT's. You stated that you got "500's on everything" which would indicate you received a 1000 as an SAT score:
www.admiss.vt.edu/apply/freshman/what_do_we_look_for.php
Average SAT: 1238
Mid-50% SAT**: 1150–1320
That isn't a very strong SAT score.
Also, from the website, only 5000 students get in, but over 20,000 apply every year. I'm sure the school has made some tough calls.
I'm also curious as to how you are so privy to all of this student's personal information? -
the point wasn't about me, it was about my friend getting in with the same SAT scores as me while being a minority.
How did I get his information? Um well we friends so I asked him what he got. What do I need a permit or a warrant to find that out? -
500s for SATs? I'm sorry, but that doesn't sound like it's adequate for Virginia Tech. In fact, that's rather on the low end. When that happens, it's time to work to improve them (too late in your case, I know) or readjust where you're applying.
And if he had the same thing, then there are perhaps other factors. One could be affirmative action, but I wouldn't stop there.
But how can you get into a school without essays? My Dartmouth application had several. Undergraduate applications are usually crazy that way. (Edited to add: I see Anok below has looked at the VT admissions requirements, and they do include a personal statement. That thing is crucial and requires many drafts over a few weeks time.)
-
-
I also wrote a paper on a Supreme Court case called Grutter v. Bollinger in my senior year. In that case the University of Michigan used the race card as factor in their admissions. You cannot honestly say that race doesn't play a big factor in admissions.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grutter_v._Bollinger
This article openly says that Virginia Tech's board of visitor's voted 7 to 5 to keep race as a factor in their admissions.
www.michigandaily.com/content/virginia-tech-retracts-change-race-conscious-...-
Yes, that is one of the cases I referenced above and, as I'm sure you know if you wrote a paper on it, approved the NARROWLY TAILORED use of race as ONE FACTOR in admissions in order to achieve a SPECIFIC PURPOSE.
-
Narrowly tailored as in around 9%percent of the college has to be minority. Yes narrowly tailored, but why in the world should it be used at all. Race has nothing to do with intellect.
-
-
you have an agenda but undermine the point you're trying to make by failing to note that legacies make up some 12 percent of all college admissions. those'd be the children of alumni and they are known academic underachievers. so you may have been cheated (cough!) out of what you see as your rightful (cough-cough!) place by someone who looks rather like you.
nice try though.
"too"-
Baby Bush? Yale with a C average.
-
At many schools legacy admissions are called "Affirmative Action for the rich, famous and spawn of alumni". There's affirmative action and then there is affirmative action. I'd rather see affirmative action making up for years of oppression, as mathematically it takes three generations for every generation of oppression to un-oppress, than making up for the stupidity of sons and daughters of the rich and famous but that is just me.
-
-
so basically you ignored the article that I just posted that says Virginia Tech uses race as a factor in admissions. Interesting. Yes "legacies" do have an impact, but like I said race does to.
-
no. what's interesting is that you ignore anything that's incongruent with what you already believe and then accuse others of doing the same thing. 12 percent legacies! and many of them are crappy, lazy students! but you don't care! hahahaha!
it's funny, isn't it?
-
-
He was a football player and he was in the national honor society for four year? First of all football is America's national sport and second of all being in the honor society for 4 years is a good thing.
-
I doubt him playing football had anything to do with admissions and if that, a very small part sense he is not going to play football there.
-
-
What's interesting also is that you do the same thing. I never said legacies don't play a role, notice I said,""Yes "legacies" do have an impact"". You are making an assumption of how bad legacy students actually are.
And
Like I mentioned, Virginia Tech openly came out and said they use race as a factor. Is that enough information for you?-
I've decided to make this an original comment.
-
Like I said I wrote what was required of me and I included what the admissions office wanted. I wrote one personal statement.
"Many factors are considered, the most important being strength of schedule, high school GPA, and standardized test scores. Other factors include:
Ethnicity
First-generation
Leadership and service
Legacy
Major requested
Participation in Virginia Tech pipeline programs
Personal statements
Residency
Race plays a factor as is why they included it in this section. So how can you say that my friend wasn't with help from the color of his skin? Yes it might not been the deciding factor, but I am sure it played a factor to him getting admitted. Legacy is also bogus because it has nothing to do with academics. I agree with you on that point. -
you pay the most fleeting and cursory nod to whatever someone else says and then continue to make your point over and over.
and then everyone else is guilty of what you're doing.
clearly you decided that this case is irrefutable and you won't hear anything otherwise.
you acknowledge legacies, but didn't include them in your original post.
you have a clear agenda and it undermines any point you wish to make. like almost all ideologues, the last thing you'll ever do is admit that you are wrong about anything. or admit that this is just a case you created out of thin air to make a point.
i also find it funny that you don't quite believe that legacy students could possibly be academic underachievers.
badgerherald.com/news/2007/03/27/legacy_matters_in_co.php -
No I don't agree with your opinion so therefore I continue with what I am saying. You do the same thing. Who cares if I didn't include legacy. Does that have to do with race? No. Or maybe I will just include it to please you.
-
You should include it because over 1/5th of the freshman class this year is classified as "legacy students".
That's an extraordinarily high amount of people when compared to ethnicities, and guaranteed enrollment. -
Who cares if I didn't include legacy. Does that have to do with race? No.
thanks for proving my point.
-
-
They should use race as a factor. I am sure they used it in the past to discriminate against qualified women and minorities. Affirmative action is in place to balance the scales of social injustice; to make right a previous wrong.
-
I really doubt any of today's college student's suffered through Jim Crowe laws or slavery. It is time for this country to move on, but unfortunately people still have grudges at people who are dead now.
-
People do not have grudges. It is that people have to be vigilant so that history does not repeat itself. There are a lot of folks in the world of academia who believe that women and minorities should stay in there place.
-
you have a very narrow appreciation for history and for the psychological, societal, educational and socio-economic imnpacts of our nation's history on minorities (African-Americans in particular) and women. This has nothing to do with "grudges". And it does not matter that Jim Crowe ended and that most college students were not alive during Jim Crowe. It matters that many African-American college students are still suffering the effects of slavery and Jim Crowe (and that women are still suffering from their own brand of inequality).
-
Narrow minded? Please. My point is that I don't see why we give loopholes to minorities, when in truth, all they want to do is have the same chance as everyone. People are so quick to back them up and get defensive when someone complains about advantages minorities have. Personally I just want everyone to have an equal shot and for no one to have an advantage based on the color of their skin. It seems like the government today tries everything it can to please minorities, but all they are doing is making them look like they cannot do things for themselves. That is completely the wrong approach to go because minorities are just as smart, if not smarter in some cases, as everybody else.
-
...minorities are just as smart, if not smarter in some cases, as everybody else.
That's the closest I've seen you come to a reasoned point-of-view. You're still ignoring history and its various effects, as I noted above, though. You are wrong to assume (as you apparently do), that Ameerican institutions (sociological, not physical) are not making it disadvantageously harder for some minorities to bring their smarts to bare, and that the "equality" you euphorically want us to give everyone might not be there because our legacy makes it disadvantageously harder for minorities to have equality of opportunity.
Also, please read what I wrote before commenting. I did not call you "narrow minded". I said you had a "narrow appreciation". Those are two different statements with two different meanings.
Edit to add: Also, you responded above to the commment I moved below (So how can you say that my friend wasn't with help from the color of his skin? Yes it might not been the deciding factor, but I am sure it played a factor to him getting admitted.). My comment below, in the first parapraph, already responds to this new point you're trying to make. -
O sorry. the layout sometimes confuses me.
-
You speak with the mouth of an inexperienced person.
-
-
Like I mentioned, Virginia Tech openly came out and said they use race as a factor. Is that enough information for you?
Your reason for starting this thread belies your statement. You're not talking about race being "a factor", you're saying your friend was admitted because of his race. You're further saying that race is somehow the determinant factor in admissions. We're not missing the point. We're responding to your post. And, to better respond, let's see what Virginia Tech has to say:
VT's admissions page says it takes a "holistic review" of applicants.
Many factors are considered, the most important being strength of schedule, high school GPA, and standardized test scores. Other factors include:
Ethnicity
First-generation
Leadership and service
Legacy
Major requested
Participation in Virginia Tech pipeline programs
Personal statements
Residency
www.admiss.vt.edu/apply/freshman/what_do_we_look_for.php
Section 10 of the VT application asks for a personal statement (it is optional, but yeah right! You better believe serious applicants include one)
You may respond to both statements (or one or neither) as you feel they support your individual application. Please limit your statement to no more than 200 words in length.
Virginia Tech is committed to providing the benefits of an educational environment rich in individual backgrounds, experiences, and characteristics. What contributions might you as a student bring
to help create a diverse educational community at Virginia Tech?
If there is something you think would be beneficial for the Admissions Committee to know as we review your academic history, please take this opportunity to explain.
www.admiss.vt.edu/forms/VTFreshApp.pdf
So, tbj, clearly, from VT's own published statements, your friend was not admitted because of his race. He was admitted first because he was qualified. He also probably submitted a personal statement, whereas it appears you did not. -
www.admiss.vt.edu/apply/snapshot.php
Gender & Ethnicity
Gender: 54.8% male, 45.2% female
Race:
* Asian: 9.4%
* Black: 3.7%
* Hispanic: 3.5%
* Native American: less than 1%
* Unknown/Other: 5.1%
* White: 77.8%
All data current as of May 15, 2008. -
Do you phone up your minority friend and tell him how lucky he is and how easy he has it because he's black? -
As much as I think affirmative action is a detriment to equality, some regulation is needed to prevent racists from controlling a university. Note that I said some. Giving scholarships only to black students is stupid.
-
Well, if you look at their new freshman line up of ethnicities - black students aren't even the ethnic group that had the highest enrollment.
Whites, "other" and Asians come before Blacks, and marginally before Hispanics. -
Is the ratio of black students to white students in college relatively proportional to the number of black high school graduates to white high school graduates? If not, there's a problem.
-
Those percentages are only meaningful when compared to something. The percent of minorities in that state or the percent of minorities who applied, for examples.
edited: if the state only is 1% black than 3% black students suggests racial preferences. -
True. You have to look at the whole picture.
-
The example was a black person that I used, but in general i was speaking more about minorities as a whole.
-
Not really, Xmarks - since college students come from all over the country, and there is also a small percentage of overseas students as well. You can't just go by local percentages.
202 black students out of over 20,000 students were accepted this semester, there is no breakdown on how many applied.
In teh school itself:
(Total enrollment of undergraduate, graduate, and professional students on and off campus)
Percentage of white students 70.2%
Percentage of black students 4.3%
Percentage of Asian students 6.9%
Percentage of Native American students 0.3%
Percentage of Hispanic students 2.6%
Percentage of international and other students 7.3%
Percentage of unknown 8.4%
Of which there are 1,099 black students.
Virginia Tech is consistently below average with regards to minority enrollment.
Preference? I'm not thinking so.
Number of freshmen who are legacies (legacy = parent, grandparent, sibling): 1,460 That's 1,258 more students who got in because of "legacy" than because of race. -
Anok, while students do come from around the world most colleges have the majority of their students come from within a reasonable driving range. I would GUESS that 90% of most school's students come from within 4 hours drive time.
-
X - they have a list of the cities and states (and they do have some exchange students) that comprise their student body - I didn't' look at it closely, though.
Even still - there is the issue of determining which percentage of people from out of state and in state students actually applied, they simply don't supply those numbers.
-
-
A black friend of mine was looking for a private school for her child. Her kid was admitted to a very good school without any admission requirements. She was told that it was because the school needed more people of color. The school even offered a huge discount. While torn, my friend eventually declined the admission because she didn't want her child to be the "token" or "quota" kid.
Giving preference based on color or religion these days doesn't make sense. Obama's kids have more opportunities than my white kids ever will. I do support incentives to outreach kids from disadvantaged neighborhoods which would have the secondary effect of support minorities. -
What bothers me is financial aid based on race. A student from a wealthy black family is eligible for more aid than someone from a poor white family. Financial aid should be need based.
-
@satijournal
I do no support affirmative action programs because I believe that over the long term they will become the cement block around our necks that takes us to the bottom of the sea re: equality. I support merit based selection. That being said, I agree with you with regard to financial aide. I believe that financial aide should be based on "means" testing. IMO it's wrong that students who come from families that are not "needy" receive any financial assistance at all. -
School based scholarships aren't based on need, though. They are based on academic/sports excellence - and are used as incentives to get star students into their programs.
FAFSA scholarships and loans, however, are based on need. -
Says who, Ben? That hasn't been my experience. Course, I was lucky enough to go to a school with strong need-based aid for undergraduates. And graduate school is merit based, at least it was for history.
-
There were grants available to minorities that weren't available to me when I went to CU in the early 90s. I'm not sure what the situation is now, but I doubt it's changed much. I was $40k in debt when I graduated -- mainly from living expenses since I was able to get grants and scholarships to cover my tuition.
-
Yeah, but grants and school based scholarships are two different things.
-
@satijournal
That is so untrue! I was not making that much when I worked for Chase and I was not entitled to any grants it was all student loans.
-
-
@anok
Number of freshmen who are legacies (legacy = parent, grandparent, sibling): 1,460 That's 1,258 more students who got in because of "legacy" than because of race.
Legacy = white 98% of of the time.
People need to ask why Affirmative action was started and why it continues. We tend to believe that everything in our country is equal and if you work hard you can attain those things. I would have to agree that hard work is what it is all about, but when the color of skin is tossed into the equation then the majority group will always have a hand up.
That is not the opinion it is the truth, from the Senate, to Congress, to CEO's and presidents, minorities are not as well represented as the white majority in this country.
Affirmative action is fighting more than the color barrier it is fighting the ignorance barrier. This is the same barrier that questioned if Obama was a Muslim or the notion he was something to be scared of, or the N word still being used by University of Texas football players........
I am sorry but people that don't understand that legacy means affirmative action for white just don't and won't get it.
Let me see if I can break this down ....60 years ago, minorities were not hired to be Doctors, Lawyers, Firefighters, nurses and other professions......Minorities were discriminated against and not allowed into college. So fast forward 60 years Doctors, Lawyers, Firefighters, nurses and other professions have scholarships that are legacy scholarships and colleges have legacy rules. Minorities excluded 60 years ago cannot be included in legacy rules and scholarships today. Thus legacy does not equal minorities, it equals exclusion, affirmative action aims to right the wrongs and well...... well it is missing the mark.
A note to non-minorities, please stop trying to understand the plight of a minority, unless you can change your skin tone and live in the communities or live as a minority for a life time you wont get it. Minorities live in a country and a system that is white. Yes hard work always will work if you are white. Minorities will always have a harder fight, ALWAYS because of ignorance.-
Class matters too, Gylon. There's no getting round that.
(And is "plight" the right word? "Situation" perhaps? "Circumstances"?) -
"Yes hard work always will work if you are white"
This may be the single most ignorant thing I've ever heard said. -
meaning that it ONLY takes hard work if you are white, it is a general statement. I really wonder why the majority group fails to see that in most cases it takes more than just hard work when trying to prove yourself and disprove the ignorance as it pertains to being a minority.
And funny that the only comment to my post was "Yes hard work always will work if you are white" -
I agree with MadameX.
As a white person, I can tell you that hard work alone will not always work just because you're white. -
That phrase bothered me too, Tiffany. Still does. Be nice if we lived in a meritocracy, but we don't.
-
You have to be completely open minded when thinking what it is like to be a minority and the tags and labels that are put on Blacks and Hispanics in our country. I wish people would stop thinking that ignoring and pretending will make everything equal. Racism and ignorance is not just a oh well topic, it is real and it runs deep and it is not kept a live by minorities.
I wish I could forget that I am black and just live as another man in America........ I will trade you......but being black makes me who I am.... and I am proud of me, but not proud of the ignorance from either side. -
Gylon, where you went wrong here was with your statements about how it is for all white people. No one who has responded so far has said that racism isn't real.
-
Mark, you know that I did not mean all white people, the same way that affirmative action does not affected all minorities and it does not take away jobs or scholarships or places for all white people.
I would think that there would be a better point to debate than "Yes hard work always will work if you are white"......... and in that statement I did not say ALL white people....... I said that hard work will ALWAYS work if you are white, because there is one less ingredient that people have to worry about. -
In GMoney's defense, I'll refer you to an apropos (and paraphrased) Chris Rock quote:
"There's not a white person in this audience who would change places with me, and I'm rich!" -
@renalfailure.......
I could not remember that quote, but it is the truth........
hey got a show starting in 8 min
hosted by me www.blogtalkradio.com/thegylonjacksonshow -
A note to non-minorities, please stop trying to understand the plight of a minority, unless you can change your skin tone and live in the communities or live as a minority for a life time you wont get it. Minorities live in a country and a system that is white. Yes hard work always will work if you are white. Minorities will always have a harder fight, ALWAYS because of ignorance.
Minorities are often the majority in their own neighborhoods. The problem is, those neighborhoods are usually the poorer, crime and gang ridden parts of town where there isn't much importance placed on hard work and education. That's what needs to change and perhaps, now that we have a president who is a minority, it will give incentive to some to get an education and have a career. -
@satijournal
not to sure what to say..... this topic gets really deep and personal.
I wish people would understand why the hoods are in poorer, crime and gang ridden parts of town where there isn't much importance placed on hard work and education...... I wish people would realize that a neighborhood does not just become a slum, I feel as if people just think that black people enjoy that life, like they don't want better.
Black people or minorities did not ask for the labels, they did not ask for drugs in their communities, they did not ask for segregation, or poor schooling choices. There are people that act like black people don't try, like they don't work hard and they don't care.
50% of young black men go to jail because they want to?
Almost 50% of blacks drop out of school why?
around 25% of black women are teen mothers why?
Do you think that black people want to live these lives, these are things and problems that took years to cause and will take years to fix. -
50 % go to jail because they break the law.
50 % drop out of school Because like you say, the culture doesn't value education. (Again refer to chris rock on that one)
25% are teenage mothers because they have unprotected sex.
All personal choices. Bad ones, yes. But still personal choices.
Now, let me turn that question around for you
HOw many of the 50% would you say do not understand that breaking the law can land you in Jail or prison?
How many would you say of the 50% dropouts have no idea that you need an education to get a Good/better job?
How many of the teenage mothers have no clue what a condom is and what it does? -
gmoney wrote, "Do you think that black people want to live these lives, these are things and problems that took years to cause and will take years to fix."
No, I agree. I don't know what the answer is, but hopefully Obama will inspire some of them to get a higher education, because really -- that's the only way out of poverty. -
A note to non-minorities, please stop trying to understand the plight of a minority, unless you can change your skin tone and live in the communities or live as a minority for a life time you wont get it.
Wait, I'm sorry, why aren't we supposed to try and understand? Is going about our lives with little thought or care about racism, sexism, and bigotry supposed to be a benefit to society?
-
-
@csiunatc
I wish that we could apply your logic of personal responsibility to everything.
Because if we did the world would be a cold place.
Things are never that cut and dry.-
You don't believe that this is about personal responsibility?
I also noted that you didn't answer the questions.
-
-
We live in a racist society and be it an overt or surreptitious act, racism is alive and well and that is why we need safeguards to make sure that women and minorities are not victimized by it.
-
gmoney wrote:
50% of young black men go to jail because they want to?
Almost 50% of blacks drop out of school why?
around 25% of black women are teen mothers why?
Can you flesh these stats out for me, please? Are you saying that half of the entire U.S. black male population is either in jail or has some sort of a felony/misdemeanor record? Are you saying that nearly half of the entire U.S. black population drops out of secondary education? Are you saying that almost a full quarter of all black women of reproductive age and under 20 yrs old are single mothers?
...Because if that's what you're saying I find what you're saying hard to believe. Can you (or anybody else) source those statistics please? -